Ok, so Sybil is had a lovely idea for a sort of book club thing awhile back and I have the fun job of posing some discussion questions. So let’s get started shall we?
Awhile ago, Devon posted a question about rakes and rogues and the difference between the two. What better way to discuss this question than with one of romancelandia’s timeless questions: St. Vincent or Derek Craven? How would one classify those two heroes?
Or if you’d rather stay out of the fray of that discussion, how would one classify my favorite hero, Nick Gentry? Is there a label that you could give to Marcus, Lord Westcliff? What about Sir Ross Cannon, the esteemed one time leader of the Bow Street Runners? What about the contemporary hero Hardy Cates? Or those Travis men, Gage, Jack, Joe, and the father Churchill?
Heroes tend to get these sorts of labels, rake, rogue, soundrel, libertine, etc. To expand more on Devon’s question, what’s the reason readers and authors tend to use these different words (and many others I can’t think of) to describe these men in the many novels published each year?
What’s the distinction? What words that describe heroes drive you wild? What lovely words to describe heroes should be added to my woefully short list?
Enquiring minds want to know.
To me, a rake is a man who plays the field while a rogue is someone who doesn’t care about rules and does as he pleases. In that respect, Derek is more a rogue than a rake. So is Nick Gentry.
Sir Vincent is without question a rake before his reformation. I think of Marcus and Sir Ross as protectors whose behaviors are honorable and above reproach.
My list of labels for heroes is not much better. How about devil or profligate or LOL loose breeches?
Oh just thought of one more – knight in shining armor! An image that Earl of Wolverton always brings to my mind.
As for Hardy Cates, he’s more of a black knight or dark horse, the one who always surprises you.
I can’t wait to continue our q and a’s . . . just fyi, I have to run out for an allergy appointment, and I’ll be back a little later this morning . . . so please keep questions or comments coming and I’ll answer everything! Love to all–
–Sneezy Lisa
It was interesting to see the different answers people came up with for that question. I tend to think of rakes as more self-absorbed, heartless, interested only in their own pleasure and other gain. IMO both Sebastian and Derek are rakes. I hate fake rakes, BTW. The redemption story is so much more affecting when the rake has done truly awful things, like in DiW and DoY.
Rogues are rule breakers who flout convention, but I think of them as less naughty. Harry Braxton in As You Desire, “Hell-Bent Grantham in The Devil You Know, LK’s Jack from Suddenly You.
Now Westcliff or Sir Ross are two great example of one of my favorite type of hero, the controlled leader type who secretly hides a passionate nature. Love! Another LK one would be Alex from Then Came You. I think of them as “Uptight Heroes” in my head, but do they have a name? We should come up with one.
Personally, I thought of St. Vincent as more of a rake, and Derek as being a rogue. St. Vincent was all about being a manslut, but Derek… did it for mercenary reasons. He had the goods, and the ladies had the money. [Haha – crass!] It also made him (more) dead inside. Although, he did sex it up for kicks too. I think their past makes me go with that distinction.
To be contrary, I’m going to stay out of the modern day hero discussion 😀
Oh come on lime, you know you are dying to say something about Hardy Cates.
Devon, I LOVE reading and writing about uptight heroes. Because for some reason I always feel they will be far more passionate when all that tension explodes out of control.
Limecello, when I wrote DOY, I wondered if some readers would despise Derek for truly having done really awful things (graverobbing, etc.) and for being a male prostitute . . . so I think Derek really sold part of his soul, and finally gets it back when he meets Sarah. St. Vincent, OTOH, I think is driven by a fear of abandonment, and an exceptionally high libido. LOL.
“an exceptionally high libido”
LOL I remembered his comment to Evie about not releasing being unhealthy.
I agree that Derek did what was expedient and at a high price to his soul but the truth was, he so won over my heart in Lily’s book with his odd combination of mercenary instincts and hidden honorability that I probably would forgive him for far worse.
I have to agree, I think Rake is someone who goes through women, who is disillusioned with romance and life in general. That’s why it’s so wonderful when they fall in love… it’s like they’ve just gotten lazer-eye surgery and the world becomes that much more clear, brighter and sharp.
Rogues make me think of lopsided smiles. I remember the first rogue I ran into in my reading (way before I was reading romance, per se) was Tamora Pierce’s George. *grins* He was a trickster, smart but uneducated. Rogues are great because of the fun outlook they take on life. It’s part of their personality, whereas Rakes tend to be the way they are because of something that has happened to them.
Devon and Lisa… I have to agree with you on uptight heroes being really sexy. When I watched Pirates of the Caribbean (and that is a question, is Captain Jack a rogue or a rake? Because he definitely has qualities of both. I’d be interested in hearing feedback.) my favorite character was Norrington (and remained so throughout the movies… he’s so well done) just because there was all that control and held-back passion. I would have went for him instead of Will, even if he was more work, I bet he would be worth it.
::
my favorite character was Norrington (and remained so throughout the movies::
MINE TOO!!!! I’ve never heard anyone else say that!
I could discuss Lisa’s heroes all day… and Sebastian StVincent forever!
What I did respond to in particular was that Derek and Sebastian both had a mean streak if you like- Derek with his actions and Sebastian with his words- which made their stories all the more satisfying when their respective heroines wrapped them ‘almost’ effortlessly around their little fingers 🙂
What I do value in heroes (as much as their pretty faces and physique) is intelligence- I adored that Sebastian was extremely articulate and his combination of wit and sarcasm was irresistible.
“which made their stories all the more satisfying when their respective heroines wrapped them ‘almost’ effortlessly around their little fingers”
I’m always reminded of tigers transformed to pussy cats.
I think rakes have a harder edge than rogues. They’re very cynical. Derek and Lord St. Vincent were both rakes. But Hardy was a white knight.
::What I do value in heroes (as much as their pretty faces and physique) is intelligence- I adored that Sebastian was extremely articulate and his combination of wit and sarcasm was irresistible.::
It’s his way of entertaining himself, running verbal circles around everyone. But I loved pairing him with a heroine who had a stutter. Because she’s just as smart as he is, and just as strong, only in a different way. Maybe even stronger.
Me too, it’s so satisfying when the hero starts out as such a rake or a rogue but then eventually becomes totally spellbound the heroine.
Kinda off topic, but I gotta say that I also love romances where the hero and heroine have a history of some kind, particularly when it’s a history full of angst and longing – Lisa, we haven’t even got to Merripen’s story yet and you can already feel the tension and love between him and Win.
Cristabel- that is a strange thing that I have to agree with… heroes with a mean streak can be really compelling. I have to be in the right mood for them, but that bit of violence, of meanness (especially if it’s used as a defensive mechanism) does sometimes make heroes more appealing. Is there a moment for you where they go over the line? For me if they do hurt the heroine (or even other characters that I like) I want them to eventually make amends for it. If they don’t that makes me loose major respect points for them.
Lisa- Really? My girlfriend and I LOVE him in the
sexysecond movie because it makes so much sense- he takes such pride in his control that when he looses it, he just goes totally the other way. I hear some people say that it seems like a real jump out of character, but for me it makes sense. I just want to take his poor little self, was him up, dress him up and help him turn his life around… because you know inside he’s going, all I wanted to do was good! And I love that he sticks to his morals, and is so torn when what he thinks has been right his entire life may very well not be the right choice. That moral problem is REALLY sexy and good character development.“To me, a rake is a man who plays the field while a rogue is someone who doesn’t care about rules and does as he pleases. In that respect, Derek is more a rogue than a rake. So is Nick Gentry.
Sir Vincent is without question a rake before his reformation. I think of Marcus and Sir Ross as protectors whose behaviors are honorable and above reproach.”
I agree with Jenny here. The rogue flouts convention as Devon says. Many are very dangerous, attracted to it even, with a hard edge; some have that dangerous edge, but can still be charming and scampish. Derek is the one with the hard edge to me, only softening as regards to Sarah, but still a dangerous man and not to be thwarted by others. Nick can be dangerous when need be, but still has a playful side to him. I’d call Jack (Suddenly You) a rogue, too.
Westcliff and Sir Ross–yes, controlled but with hidden passions; I’m not sure what you’d call them either.
So Lisa, what’s your take on rake vs. rogue, which for you applies to Derek, Nick, Sebastien and Jack?
I really like the words rake and scoundrel. I find when those words are associated with a hero, St. Vincent for example, it gives me a little extra in the expectation department toward the hero. We all knew that St. Vincent was a rake and it’s so much sweeter to see men like him, the ones who never envision falling in love, take the plunge.
I would have responded to this discussion but my answer would have been dead on Devon’s answer so I’m just going to say ditto to everything Devon said in her reply.
I think of rakes as being more care free and more about themselves and their own pleasures. They’re the hit it and quit it guys (sorry if that was a bit crude but well, I had to do it) and move on to the next willing participant. They’re the playboys that ruin reputations and all that.
The rogues are just as wicked in bed but they’ve got more conscience than a rake. At least that’s how I’ve always thought of it.
Wow, I’m getting such and education here! LOL I’ve been reading romance for less than two years, and I haven’t read a whole lot of historical romance. Wait!! Don’t throw tomatoes at me! LOL I do actually own a few. Including Lisa’s Wallflower series and Mine Till Midnight. Which have all now just been bumped up the TBR pile thanks to this discussion! =)
Lisa, thank you for spending the day with us! It was a pleasure chatting with you! 🙂
I know it sounds horrible but I always thought of Westcliff and Sir Ross as “anal retentive”. I mean, they always had to be in control of thier surroundings and the situation. As for St. Vincent, for me he’s a rogue. He actually stole Lillian away! BTW, HOW you managed to reform him was just fascinating to me Lisa!! The man stole his best friend’s girl and after reading Devil in Winter my heart was actually melting for him…
First of all, Derek is more rogue than rake. A rogue lives his life by his own rules, no matter if it is his love life or anything else. Another word that describes perfectly is in my opinion Playboy. He lives his life with only his own pleasure in mind.
So many of the descriptions given to heroes implies a man who has been involved with numerous women but I think I would like to see descriptions that speak more to their personality like jaded, cynical, world weary.